(no subject)

[lumineaux]

So if a certain someone(s) were to start putting together a completely informal and unofficial handbook of fencing marshal training tips and advice, what sort of things should be included?

Comments

[beckishadow.livejournal.com]

Heh... Let me think about it - I think I still have my notes from the class I tried to arrange at the Nova Schola. (Darn snow!)

[lord-strider.livejournal.com]

how to run Tournements without a MOL. How to run auths. How to do proper inspections (weapon and armor). Info on how to run a practice and starter drills for it.

[caitlindancer.livejournal.com]

Ooo! I like the info on how to run a practice and starter drills.

[fencerm2.livejournal.com]

I think the basic questions that should be asked (this mostly applies to single. When you begin to get to the advanced forms, I just need to see 'em fence, personally); an explanation of safe AND competent (competent versus skillful, and why there is a difference, and why it is important); the basic layout of a first authorization (single - and the reason why this form calls for the separation of defense, offense, then actual bouting); and the protocol for taking complaints up the chain of command and why that needs to be clear to the potentially authed fencer, too.

Nope, I have certainly NEVER given this any thought...

:-)

[ferriludant.livejournal.com]

A clearer and less ambiguous treatment of what authorization _means_.

I'd like to see us have more consensus on things like: _how_much_ skill is required? What about footwork? Does the style have to be pretty? An argument can be made that turning your foot off the straight line is dangerous, since it extra-stresses the knee. Is that enough of a violation to fail someone? What if they can perform the motions of attacks and defense, but cannot be expected to ever defeat anyone?

What if they've got a medical issue that you know about? Haemophilia, a heart condition, fragile bones, whatever? Is there a point where they need a doctor's note?

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

What if they've got a medical issue that you know about? Haemophilia, a heart condition, fragile bones, whatever? Is there a point where they need a doctor's note?

The marshallate probably needs to do a collective re-thinking of this particular issue, in light of the recent laws regarding medical privacy rights.

[ferriludant.livejournal.com]

And quick, don't you think? Or do we want individual marshals making this call on individual cases?

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

Me, I don't want nuthin'. I'm just a lowly marshal at large who throws out ideas so they can be ignored. :-/

[ferriludant.livejournal.com]

Understood. Me, I would like to see us deal with this, so we don't put individual marshals into a situation where they have to make a call which potentially has liability issues either way they choose.

But that's just me.

[collin-m.livejournal.com]

As seen on the EK Marshals list you have a hot issue here. Some see even talking about doing anything as a thing to fear. But a standard in how things are done is something we need to think about.
As for questions and thoughts on a marshal guide source.
DFB, how to do it and when it's allowed.
What is engagement? When is it broken & who do you get it back?
Also it might be a good idea to include a brief explanation of authorization styles. I always start a auth bout by saying, "Remember , you are not fencing Collin. You are fighting generic fencer B." I say this especially if this is a person I have fought before. I do fight auths differently than I fight a bout. I have had people stop in mid auth an say, "Your not going to get me to fall for that trick." I have to explain that the opening I'm leaving or the bad form I'm using is not a trick but that I need to see how they hit or handle a opponent who is just doing some strange things.

[ferriludant.livejournal.com]

Collin introduces a good point: when is it a good thing to be involved in the auth of someone we've fenced or worked with before, and when is it not?

I was trained, far away and long ago (and in the heavy community besides) that you always authorize with people you haven't worked with. Moved to the East, took up fencing, and found the same philosophy (Dona Wyrm).

But this is clearly not a universal philosophy. Is it a good idea? Should we encourage people to practice it, or downplay it?

[math5.livejournal.com]

I've seen that the people I work with tend to do that. Of course it's sometimes not easy to find authorizing marshals who haven't fenced (or at least worked with) the people taking the auth.
I think it's a good idea because:
1) the auth is to make sure the candidate is safe with anybody, not just known people
2) if you've worked with the person you might focus on things that are not actually relevant (for ex the footwork is less than pretty is such situation, or...) and be actually too critical
3) if you know the person you could notice that s/he is having a bad day and usually does better and compensate for that, which I think is also unfair
4) I'm sure there are other reasons but it's food time :)

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

What do you mean by "involved?" Watching the auth? Maybe. Hearing what the marshals have to say? Definitely. Making the decision? Well, if it's the only way the person can possibly get authorized, then yeah.

Many of us live in places that are hip deep in marshals. In those places, there's no reason not to sit out of your own student's authorization bouts. But in Ruantallan? Or out in the far western parts of PA that really ought to be Aethelmearc? Or on Long Island? If those people had to wait for 2 out of area marshals to visit, their people might never get authorized. Marshals, unlike nuns, don't usually travel in convenient pairs. :-)

[collin-m.livejournal.com]

Just a small clarification. I try not to be one of the deciding marshals in an auth if I have been actively helping a person get ready for that auth. If it's someone who has been coming to my regular practice for some time I'm sure I have fenced them. But if it was just free bouting I will not decline to do the auth in that case.

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

As seen on the EK Marshals list you have a hot issue here. Some see even talking about doing anything as a thing to fear.

That's why the plan is to make something complete unofficial, based on the input and opinions of those who want to be involved. Those who don't think it's necessary or don't want to use it/be involved in it can ignore it. It's not marshallate policy - it's the informed opinions of a bunch of marshals who see a need and want to fill it.

[collin-m.livejournal.com]

I agree completely. No one was looking to make sweeping rules changes. Just look at some of the things we do and try to do them better. I for one think I can always do better. If a reference source is made available it would be foolish not to use it.

[delabarre.livejournal.com]

To me, the best marshals are the ones who can think on their feet and make good decisions when faced with new and unexpected challenges.

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

Like perf steel helmets? :-)

[delabarre.livejournal.com]

Well, that's just a small subset. How do you handle new equipment that you've never seen or heard of before? How do you handle weird fencer behavior, like a woman having a panic attack during a melee and yanking her mask off? (Happened in AE last year) How do you handle strange medical conditions, like a fencer at a practice vibrating so much he looks like he's about to fall over into a grand mal palsy? (happened to me in Rochester a couple years ago)

Knowing the rules is necessary, but a good marshal has to be able to analyze unexpected situations and make decisions that strike the proper balance between safety and enjoyment, hopefully without irritating anyone unnecessarily.

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

Okay then, back at ya: How does one commit this sort of instruction to writing in a way that is understandable by someone who has never met you or me?

drat

[rlg.livejournal.com]

I wrote the reply ... and it didn't post.

Try again.

what are some trick questions?
(the infamous "how many cuts" question)
("what do you do when facing a new fencer?")
(can an epee face a schlager in a tournament)
(who can cry "hold"?)
why are they useful?
(what are the body parts ... )
(a reminder of the conventions and etiquette of the lyst)
(if the fencer blows that one ... stop the authorization)
(a reminder to keep an eye on things, and an ear to more than the opponent)

a short tutorial on how to phrase questions.
(don't say "can a cut throat kill you?" do say "where will a cut kill you?")

a small reminder of regional variants if the authorization is coming up on that ... Pennsic and Kingdom Crusades are interkingdom event, the fighting conventions are different there.

Re: drat

[his-eminence.livejournal.com]

(a reminder of the conventions and etiquette of the lyst)

Sorry but I don't ever remember reading anywhere where someone had to know about social etiquette of the list to pass a qual... I mean if that were the case then most of the problem children the knowne world over would have never gotten qualled.
Besides there is a serious regonal problem with that. At the Concordian practice, more often than not, you'll wind up giving up an arm if you take someone else's arm. Yes, while they understand that this isn't a rule, but a "etiquette" thing, it is mostly a regional thing, and SHOULDN'T be included in the overall qual process.

Re: drat

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

So Richild, what do you mean by "etiquette of the list" in your suggestion?

Jean-Paul, regardless of whether it should be required for authorization, should marshals be informing people about "points of honor" and other bits of fencing "culture" that aren't enshrined as rules?

Re: drat

[his-eminence.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry but to me that's like asking if saluting should be covered by the marshallette...
That should be up to local instructors.

Re: drat

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

By the way, I'm not advocating one way or another whether marshals should be handling certain things. I'm asking questions to get people talking.

I'm sorry but to me that's like asking if saluting should be covered by the marshallette... That should be up to local instructors.

What about things that are tacky (ex: in single combat, circling someone who is legged), but not illegal under the rules? Should marshals be informing people of such customs? (Note that I said informing of, not failing people who don't know the customs in advance).

I'd also be interested to know where you draw your dividing line for what's a marshal's job vs. the instructor's job. Again, not saying you're right or wrong, but you clearly have a line in mind, and I think it's worthwhile to know how you arrived at that line.

Re: drat

[his-eminence.livejournal.com]

ex: in single combat, circling someone who is legged), but not illegal under the rules? Should marshals be informing people of such customs?

Good example, to that I say this...
Instructors job to inform, and Marshals job to enforce if it becomes unsafe.
Personally I wouldn't stop it from happening if I saw it starting, if I know the person (I like to use local marshals/teachers for "training"), I might cat call from the side about corkscrewing someone if I'm close enough, or if I'm not, I'd make sure to bring it to their attention later. But I wouldn't call a Hold.

I'd also be interested to know where you draw your dividing line for what's a marshal's job vs. the instructor's job.

That is quite simple, my job as a marshal is first and foremost to ensure the safety of the combatants, and enforce the rules should something become unsafe. The rules are rather defined for what we do, so all you have to do is follow them.
My job as an instructor is to teach my students the rules so they become a safe (and hopefully fun) fencer.

Re: drat ("ettiquette")

[rlg.livejournal.com]

wow, didn't quite realize it was such a can of worms. I believe I can explain it with an example:

I sometimes ask the question: "You are facing someone for the first time in a tournament, the weapons form has been decided upon, the salutes have been made. What do you do next/before starting to fight?"
The answer I am looking for is "calibrate." for a newer fencer, knowing what is and isn't a good blow, and what to expect from their opponent, what dead spots their armor causes, can be crucial to acquiring or avoiding a reputation as a dishonorable fighter.

And the "regional differences" I refer to are Kingdom-level differences. The rules for Pennsic are different from the rules at K&Q Champions, and a newly authorized fencer should know that there are differences, even if s/he isn't quite sure what they are.

[wingblaze.livejournal.com]

Don't we have a marshal's handbook that is supposed to cover some of this ground? Or was it lost to the ages?

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

Not so much lost as neutered beyond usability. :-) We'll talk at SRWC. Or ask katnboots - she can talk your ear off on how marshal training has deteriorated. ("Talk your ear off" said with utmost love, of course, because she's 100% right).

[katnboots.livejournal.com]

utmost love, of course, because she's 100% right

You'd love me anyway.

8)