lumineaux

I think that guidelines for documentation along the lines of interview questions would encourage more people to try their hand at documentation.

So, what interview questions would you suggest for someone putting up a project in your field(s)?

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ursula

I judged a bunch of beginning A&S projects at Caid's Pentathlon last year. I found that most beginners explain what they did to make an object, or what people did in period to make an object, but not both: they might say, "I baked my bread in the oven at 350 degrees", or "People in the Middle Ages baked bread in wood-fired ovens", but wouldn't give you both pieces of data. People who combined the two ideas into sentences such as, "I baked my bread in a gas oven at 350 degrees, because I didn't have access to a wood-fired oven of the type used in the Middle Ages" scored at the "journeyman" level or above.

A very general Q&A for an item would go something like:

* What did you make?
* What materials did you use?
* What materials would someone in the Middle Ages have used?
* What process did you follow?
* What process would someone in the Middle Ages have followed?
* What did you learn from making your item?
* What sources did you consult?

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If you were to find yourself as King/Queen/A&S Champion, etc. and be asked to run a "competition," how would you do it? How would you select judges? What would you tell them to look for? This is not an answer that requires any particular experience or status. It's brainstorming for ideas that we can later turn into something more concrete.

In no particular order:

I just had an odd thought about having the entrants also be the judges. One might try to overlap the type of entry and the sorts of things you have to judge, but some accommodations would have to be made so that the person who entered, "tools for period ear-wax removal" would still have to judge things. I think the A&S community might come for my head for this one, though.

I honestly think it's foolish to attempt to do any real judging in just one day. If I really wanted to judge someone's work, I would have to go do some of my own research, even if their work were in my "field". So, maybe entrants could be required to provide pre-reading? Or some clue at what they're making a week ahead of time - maybe a time-period and a general category?

Another idea - populace chooses, instead of "expert" judging. Have entrants provide enough materials to learn about what they've made, and if the populace both likes the work and feels like they've learned to tell what's awesome/period/good about it or what isn't, then they vote for it.

When I was attempting to design the Carolingian Archery Champs tournament, and wondering what sort of shoots to have, etc, someone suggested to me that I design something that would help ensure that we ended up with the kind of champion I felt should be Champion. To that end, if I were Queen/King's A&S Champion and trying to do something similar, I would want someone who was both passionate about their art *and* keen on and good at sharing it with others *and* able to execute it well. So, I would probably want a competition that required that the winner show some sort of enthusiasm (probably the hardest to measure), and teach other people about it (possibly through some sort of in-person session where they describe it to whoever is judging, or maybe describe it to random people, and the judges judge how they did), and make something cool (wow, that looks awesome!). I don't exactly know how to make all that work, though. I would probably not require that they make multiple items in multiple categories, 'cause I don't care if they do or not (though perhaps this is kind of counter-East/SCA where we make people switch weapons form in the finals of Crown and whatnot). And I would probably not require that they produce some sort of formal written documentation (though a list of sources would be good) since I also don't really care if they can write or not, if they can tell all about it in person.

What are you looking for when you enter an A&S competition or put your work out for display?

Part 1: Whee! Look what I made!
Part 2: Feedback from people I wouldn't ordinarily get feedback from.
Part 3: A little pressure to get something done.
Part 4: A little pressure not to shortcut around doing it the "period" way.

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What would you like of a 3-minute maximum "presentation" for someone to explain her work and why she did it?

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ursula

More time!

Seriously, a presentation as short as three minutes is really hard to make effectively, unless you practice it until it's PERFECT.

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I like the idea, though there is, of course, the issue of those who are just horrible at presentations. But, I think it's good to have different kind of competitions. On the other hand, just like sometimes it's a bear-pit, sometimes it's double-elim, and sometimes you get to choose your weapons form, and sometimes you don't, I think it's okay to have different flavors of A&S competitions.

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There are going to be people who are bad at written documentation; there are going to be people who are bad at presentations. But the truth is that artisans can't get meaningful feedback without doing one or the other, because not everyone is going to know what they are looking at.

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Yup, so it is.

I'm with

ursule, though - I think maybe 5 minutes would be better?

There's also nothing to stop someone from providing documentation if they want to. There's also nothing forcing a judge to read it, but if it makes them feel better...

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Sadly, every populace vote competition I have witnessed (and not just the ones I have entered) was won either by the person with the "prettiest" item (which coincidentally was post-period, but ...) or by the person with the largest number of friends. I base the latter explanation on the way that person's friends trooped in, one right after another, dropped the bead in that person's cup without even looking at any other entries, and left again.

I should also note that - since bead counts are always kept in confidence - there is no feedback whatsoever for populace vote contests.

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Actually, there's a sort-of populace-vote competition at GNE each year, and I think it works quite well. You're given papers to write comments on and it's not specifically anonymous. I know I try to write real comments when I go to "vote". I haven't kept track of what flavor of items tend to win, though.

It's also much lower-key than K&Q A&S, but lower-key is good sometimes.

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Mileage varies. As someone else pointed out elsethread, organizers try to find judges who are not intimately involved with the competitors. I think this is important.

Similarly, I am asked now to judge tablet weaving and textiles in the regional competitions, but will only judge championship entries if I stop competing for champion. :)

Low-key is nice, but I've seen a lot of beginners soured on the lack of feedback and standards. (Myself included, considering how short I've been actively playing.)

Btw; what's a Maunche? The AoA level award?

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Btw; what's a Maunche? The AoA level award?

Yes, though unlike many other Kingdoms, the East does not have a Grant-level A&S (or anything else) award, so it has a little bit of a different feel to some.

Low-key is nice, but I've seen a lot of beginners soured on the lack of feedback and standards. (Myself included, considering how short I've been actively playing.)

That's why I said somewhere else that it's good to have different kinds of competitions. Some, like you, get frustrated from not hearing good, constructive feedback and plenty of it. Others get really uncomfortable about competitions at all. I have one friend, who happens to be a Laurel and makes stunningly awesome stuff, who won't compete in any A&S competitions at all. She hates them with passion. I was looking for there to be something in between.

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Ah; Gleann Abhann has both AoA and GoA arts level awards. We also have a culture that is still heavily dependent on heavy fighting. There are very few events in our kingdom that don't include a heavy tournament. Even Kingdom A&S Championships usually do. Sigh.

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The problem I'm having with documentation is manyfold.
First off I got my maunche without doing one lick of documentation. I painted. The end.
I had no idea I was on the poll or anywhere near that. I was asked to do some additional work for the crown and was encouraged to enter my work in the A&S display at Pennsic.
That's it.
That was apparently enough.

Now when I want to enter other objects such as ceramics or cosmetic items I have to enter documentation as well. It was very difficult at first. Well it still is.

I have written documentation that was deemed too long. I wrote less, it was called too short. I tried to balance and was told I should do bullet points. Every time my score was marked down accordingly. I could not win.
And that is my big problem with judging and documentation. If you have any solutions, I would be very happy to hear it.

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It's precisely because of experiences like yours that we're kicking around ideas in a fairly safe conversational space.

My solution is to make people adhere to some kind of consistent standard when judging A&S in formation competitions, and to publicize that standard so people know the expectations they are being held to. But in some quarters this is considered the rankest heresy.

I'm not particularly concerned about when and why we give out awards for "arts." My goal is that we should never see again the look of bafflement people get when they've entered a competition and received either no feedback or feedback that is worse than useless (for example, despite including period recipes for sugar paste in her documentation, Alesone got back the comment that "sugar isn't period!"). I'd like us to improve the East's ways of talking about. Might as well start with trying to get a handle on competitions. That this happens to coincide with the goals and interests of two of my protegees is not accidental. They are bad influences on me.

And yes, Maunches are sneaky things. They creep up on you and assault you when you aren't looking. :-)

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Sugar isn't period? ......"sugar isn't period"???
I'll make sure I tell the Tacuinum Sanitatis then shall I?

I see this as not having an appropriate judge for her work. At least I hope that was the reason because otherwise we have far more work ahead of us.

And yes I have been reading "the list" and some of it...no most of it makes me want to stab myself in the eye.

I enter competitions to gain better understanding of my art and ways to improve it. I want to be better and sometimes I get good leads on where to go next. I don't mind doing documentation honestly, but I don't entirely enjoy it either, BECAUSE of the inconsistency on the other end.

From:

alysten.livejournal.com

Specifically... white sugar isn't period. And neither is turkey. And let us not forget that spices were used to cover up bad meat.

Sigh. People sometimes mean well. Mistress "so and so" said xyz and if she said it is so, then that is the gospel truth. Regardless of what we now know to be otherwise. It is a long, uphill battle with some folks.

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ah..I see, the old "We all know that in medieval times..."
Yes I have had that with carrots. We ALL know that carrots were always white. No no no. No.

I have had classes where someone spoke up to add something to my class, and it was wrong and I knew it was wrong but yes..ugh the above like you said. Uphill.

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I play in Gleann Abhann. At http://kingdomofgleannabhann.org/library/arts-a-sciences.html they list all the documentation they also give judges. There is (and always will be, I suspect) still some room for interpretation, but inside each category they give specific examples.

After digging through that directory, I discovered writing workable documentation isn't hard. (Okay, scoring 100% is hard enough I haven't done it yet, but 95% is almost there?)

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I am pretty sure I never wrote any documentation before I got my maunche either, unless you count, "Look, I made something that looks like this manuscript page," as documentation.

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That makes sense if it is consistent with C&I. But I find it interesting we get a pass, don't you?

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I do, and I think there is a long and complicated answer as to why that might be, that probably deserves its own LJ conversation.

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Yes, yes it does.

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Oh my yes.

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Yes, rather, and yes, not to cross the conversational threads, please. :)

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alysten.livejournal.com

THIS. A 1000 times this exactly.

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The time I entered into a Kingdom Champions competition, it was definitely not to win (for one, winning required entering multiple items and I only entered one). My primary goal was to show people the importance of underwear (I entered a handsewn linen Tudor smock). Most folks in the SCA tend to own several overgarments and skimp on the shirts and smocks and chemises and brais and hose [1] - what I've read suggests that most folks in period had a outer/inner clothes ratio that goes the other way. I also wanted to show that handsewing ain't rocket science and that it makes a big difference in the result. [2] I think it was relatively successful, even though I came in behind two froofy Elizabethan outfits.

The first time I entered into an A&S competition at all, I was just hoping to get some feedback on my documentation. That didn't quite go the way I'd expected - one of the judges (they had to borrow a Lady of the Rose to complete the trio of judges) asked me to help her with *her* documentation. [wry grin]

The only time I've had to run an A&S competition as a Champion, it was for the next barony over and I largely had to rely on the local A&S officer to do some of the groundwork. I asked around to find out which Laurels and Flowers (GoA arts/sciences) were going to be there and asked some of them if they could judge. The Baroness wanted to be a judge. I judged. I tried to get at least three people judging each item, and "not their spouse/SO, not their peer, etc." was the primary criteria, but after that I tried to match people to skillsets. It wasn't the most formal competition, and I encouraged everyone to make positive comments and -talk- with the entrants. This is one of the things I liked about Queen's Prize as well - focus on being helpful, supportive, encouraging (and not being a jerk) and on communication with entrants.

[1] I see lots of folks in the East Doing It Right. Whether it's because people here have more money to spend on fabric and related goods (my former kingdom has many folks who just don't have the income for better fabric) or just a higher overall standard, it makes me happy.
[2] I don't know if handsewing is more prevalent here or not, but I do see lots of stuff that looks right. It makes me happy.

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To sum up (since that was kind of tl;dr on my part there):

I enter (or would enter) competitions with the primary goal of exposing people (judges, other entrants, random passers by) to parts of medieval life that they simply don't usually think much about.

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So what you're saying is that the East thinks about underwear a lot? ;-)

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math5.livejournal.com

Or period-appropriate lack thereof

From:

ursula

Out west we translate poetry about it!

http://ursule.livejournal.com/117342.html#cutid1

(Filtered because it's not work-safe. Ping me if you're curious about dirty Latin poetry & can't read it.)

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math5.livejournal.com

That's cute.
I guess studying that type of texts could have potentially convinced me to keep studying Latin in high school.

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ursula

Yeah, high school students always get stuck with the boring stuff!

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Yes, that too.

(Though I generally hate chafing more than I like authenticity.)

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